Japanese women dream of the USA
DIMSDRIVE performed internet-based research involving 5,274 people in September of last year to find out which country’s citizens would people most want to marry. It is not stated whether or not the people interviewed were single or not.
The Asia versus the West split is quite noticeable in the men, but really striking amongst the women. I previously translated statistics regarding international marriages in Japan that shows that the ideals being expressed here do not seem to be realised.
On a slight tangent, I watched the last episode of an NHK English learning program which features an English-speaking Western blonde angel that prods a clueless office worker along the path to success at her job getting a date with her transferred from New York colleague, the ideal tall, muscular, tanned, well-coiffured white executive. The angel’s job was done because the glaikit Misaki finally pulled her man.
Q: Other than Japanese, which country’s people do you think would be good to have as a partner (husband or wife)? (Sample size=5,274, free answer)
Rank Votes 1 USA 1,144 2 Korea 505 3 UK 442 4 Italy 370 5 France 344 6 Australia 218 7 Germany 203 8 China 197 9 Canada 150 10 Russia 120 Q: Other than Japanese, which country’s people do you think would be good to have as a partner (husband or wife)? (By sex, free answer)
Rank MaleN=2,468 Votes Rank FemaleN=2,806 Votes 1 USA 368 1 USA 776 2 Korea 297 2 UK 347 3 China 174 3 Italy 278 4 France 134 4 France 210 5 Russia 117 5 Korea 208 6 Thailand 99 6 Australia 145 7 UK 95 7 Germany 131 8 Italy 92 8 Canada 99 9= Taiwan 73 9 Switzerland 47 9= Australia 73 10 Spain 34 First, looking at the East-West split - or more accurately, perhaps, the caucasian-Asian split (I’m not aware of any black Western role-models in Japan) we see that for men, 36% of the total votes were for Western wives versus 26% for Asian women, favouring the West (I’m including Russia, with Maria Sharapova as the popular image of the country) by just over a third. However for women there is a marked difference; about 74% in total choose the West (over 40% for the USA alone) versus a mere 7.4% for the East, a massive ten to one vote for Europe and the USA.
Next, looking at the detailed age breakdown, it’s only in the teenage girls group that the USA fails to top the charts, losing out to France and Korea, and equal with the UK. For men in their twenties, American women are preferred over the second-placed Korean women by almost 60%, and the Chinese are back in fifth, gaining just over a third of the number of votes of the USA. However, the older men get, the stronger the charms of the Asian neighbours become, with the gap at its smallest being just a mere three votes. Similarly, for men in their forties and over, Chinese women cut the gap from a third to about a half of the USA score.
For women, as they get older (ignoring the over sixty bracket which has a very small sample size, so may be rather inaccurate) the attraction to American men only get stronger; in their twenties, Americans get just under a quarter of the vote, but by their fifties, it surpasses three in ten. Despite the charms of the disturbingly Harry Potter-like Bae Yong Joon Korean men do not seem to be particularly favoured by the middle-aged demographic.
These two main trends noted above are perhaps reflections on Japanese society as much as on foreign stereotypes. The younger men hold images of themselves as charming the sophisticated Western woman, but as they age (and visit dodgy hostess bars…) they come to realise that perhaps only Asian women could accept their typical Japanese behaviour. For women, after having been around Japanese men for many, many years, they too may come to realise that the Western stereotypes of politeness and chivalry are the only things that could satisty them in marriage.
Bonus points if you can name the people pictured…
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Marty said,
December 12, 2006 @ 21:39
Hmmm….if we actually look at the statistics…it shows…
Japanese men marry:
Americans 156
British 65
Japanese women marry:
Americans 1,529
British 334
Now…there are five times as many Americans than there are Brits so surely if the Japanese really preferred Americans they should have five times as many marriages than Brits marrying Japanese. So why hijack the thread being just about Americans? Actually I’m just joking, I don’t care…I wanted to join in but was feeling a bit left out by not being American!!!
Regarding the guy who was bashing Americans - why dignify his views with a response? Better not to care what people who live their life based on stereotypes think surely? I’m a Brit and I have met some Americans who are dicks…but that is because they are idiots not because of their nationality, hence why my American friends I think are cool. There is good and bad in each country, including our own.
Could it be instead that most of the marriages are not because the partner is specifically American (or Brit or French) but simply more to do with them liking each other? I hope so. The emphasis of this poll on solely ‘American’ or white vs. asian is a bit depressing really.
Excellent post from delboy as well…I’m not sure why but there seems to be a far worse view in some Asian countries towards blacks than whites. In China for example I was told a number of times that when a Chinese girl dates a white guy it is seen as her moving upwards socially whereas seeing a black guy would be moving downwards. This seems both racist and misogynist in outlook.
Remember on one occasion I asked when I was teaching (they were successful university lecturers and I was giving a lecture) if it was OK for people to marry with those of a different culture. Most said if they loved each other then fine…then one lady stood up and said “If they love each other it is good but Chinese with black people….I cannot accept this”. This was completely out of nowhere and race hadn’t been brought up…the rest seemed to nod along as if this was perfectly obvious. Bizarre! It’s not as if any black guys ever torched the Summer Place like us Brits and the French did! There was also some Anti-African riots in Nanjing in the late 80s…there it was triggered by an incident involving African students and Chinese girls. It’s hard to believe they would have been so angry if it had been white guys.
Not sure why blacks are looked down upon so much there…but it most certainly has not been forced upon them by the West but it is much more complicated (and older) than that.
Marty said,
December 12, 2006 @ 21:48
Jesi said - “Europeans tend to be a bit snobbish about um, well, everything. And, I might add, most countries that were former British colonies tend to have that high-nose attitude.”
I agree - former British colonies like Canada and America for example!
Come on…all countries have some people with the high-nose attitude! Certainly the USA does as anyone who has ever been to the East Coast will be able to verify!
Most modern limeys are no more high-nosed than the average Aussie, Kiwi or Canuck. At least not when you get to know them, maybe they are slightly more reserved with complete strangers but that is not a negative, they are just being careful.
Delboy0 said,
December 13, 2006 @ 13:03
People are just people and doesn’t matter what your colour or sex is. But media can influence society and people and it is wrong when this happens in a negative way. The British are generally a more left wing socialist society, but because most of the people in the media are upper middle class and white the media is very right wing and if it wasn’t for the BBC all the media would be right-wing like America. This is creating a more right-wing society in UK like America where there is a greater fear of people of different colours. Britain was very different to the USA because it was just as diverse but people of different colours mixed far more. I’m 27 years old and Ghanaian in origin and remember having an Irish, Jamaican and Indian nannies. My next door neighbours were Greek and Scottish and we all did things socially together. Britain never really had racial ghettos like America because the place is just too small especially in overpopulated London and that is why interracial relationships are far more common in the UK. Yes I know there are South Asian ghettos in the UK, but Brixton is meant to be a Black British ghetto, but the place is still 40% white. I’ve been to the USA and there are places you won’t ever see a white face at all.
Ethnic interracial dating has always been weird for 1st generation immigrants because while they might be against interracial dating, white is the most acceptable race to date outside of their own. More so for Asians than black people. I remember when I told my mum I was dating a Chinese girl she said I must be dating her because I like Chinese food. It was silly comment, but that explains that people look for reasons why someone from an ethnic group would date outside of their race for a person in another ethic group beyond love. So if an Asian woman dates a Black dude to other Asians she must be dating him for a big penis and great sex so she must be some kind of whore. It is perceived better sex is the only thing a Black man can offer an Asian woman that an Asian man can’t. If an Asian women dates a white male (and this applies to South Asians too) then other Asians view this as her not being touch with her roots, that she wants fairer babies, that she wants a life in the west or he is loaded and very successful. Given the community perceptions of dating black and white people it is no wonder so many middle class Asian girls date white men and not black men. It is far less painful to be label culturally not in touch than a whore for dating a black dude. It works both ways because a black man that dates an Asian woman is perceived as wanting a weak subservient woman that can be bought, implying that he is weak himself. The ironic things is western Asian women are aware of that stereotype too so they are far more likely to be assertive & dominate than perceived. Then again this has been my experience of dating Asian girls. Maybe Asian girls that date Black guys are far stronger minded and assertive because it is far more acceptable for an Asian girl to date a white guy than a black guy.
Dell Boy said,
December 15, 2006 @ 06:21
DelBoy0………wow… hats off… finally someone who share similiar views on many levels.. next time i visit my grand parents and the rest of my family in London and Bradford.. i gots to give you a ring.. my email address is finish_99@yahoo.com. take care
justin said,
December 21, 2006 @ 07:23
Women go for bad guys and not polite shy people. So japanese guys, if you want interracial dating to stop, take some lessons from the gun touting unilingual uneducated americans and get some guts. Don’t complain that us white guys are taking your women go get a girlfriend and be cool/tough/funny because underneath it all thats what most women want, not politeness or intelligence or money. Just some advice from a teenager in south carolina.
Lee said,
December 23, 2006 @ 14:39
Delboy seems to have major gaps in his historical knowledge and sociological reasoning. Maybe too many days were missed while attending those superior British schools.
walter said,
December 24, 2006 @ 07:41
Race really shouldn’t matter in these modern days and times. Everyone has a right to prefer whether or not to choose a partner of their race or own colour. However, let me emphasize that as for China, China is still basically Communist, therefore their ideology is limited when it comes to dating black people in general. Don’t get me wrong there are several black/Chinese couples, but I personally would not prefer Chinese women anyway from China because SOME (not all) of them are so in tune with the Commie ideology. So surprise to all of you who think that it’s always Chinese are prejudiced against blacks. Blacks can be just as prejudiced against Chinese if not worse. Most of the times, younger blacks and Chinese would prefer to date each other, but it is always the family of each, not just the Chinese, that objects to such. Then as for some black Americans such as myself, there are the polictical views. Particularly when it comes to Taiwan as I support Taiwanese independence as well as support for a Free Tibet. If I was to let a Chinese girl or even a Chinese American know about my support for this, what do you think would happen? Therefore, China basically has a long way to go on human rights and respect for Taiwan and Tibet sovereignty in general before it realizes that all humans are the same and that China shouldn’t blame its past failures on foreign interventions but on themselves. Especially on their current government who really just cares about keeping its power and uses Taiwan as an issue to unite Chinese against Taiwan which is really wrong. Therefore, I am basically further supporting Marty’s comment on why Chinese in particular, view blacks so negatively as well as shedding light on the China situation in particular.
Also, in my opinion I would rather date Japanese or Taiwanese girls anyway. I personally think Japanese and Taiwanese girls are way cuter anyway. This is just my opinion. I know there are good-looking Chinese out there, but you’d better not be a black/Native American with a passion for supporting Taiwanese independence like I do…hahahaha, or you WILL be arguing constantly with your Chinese gf. But Chinese girls in my opinion, are very beautiful and they are just like any other girl. Women may come from different cultures, have different political views, but they all want the same thing regarding men and they are just like any other woman in this world regardless of race, beliefs, nationality, politics, whatever, you name it. Thank you.
Reddeath26 said,
December 24, 2006 @ 08:51
Well firstly it amazes me to find a place where people actually read the other posts. xD Clearly this is a concept that should be applied to other forums.
Isn’t the fact that USA controls international media so much going to have an effect on this? Assuming that those stats are an accurate representation which I have doubts about, media will have an influence on it. How much of a monopoly does USA have on films? From what I have heard it has been and is sometimes still marketed as a “modern” country. Politics in USA are constantly trying to promote the fact that their society is modern and others ie Communism are outdated and false. This could change the influence America has.
Walter said,
December 25, 2006 @ 03:31
Actually um Reddeath, who in here said Communism was outdated or false? I simply said Communism has a completely different ideology and it does. Now history shows that Communism isn’t really all that great and yeah of course democracy hasn’t been good, but it has a very solid and strong foundation based on UNIVERSAL values. Not one time did I say China because of Communism was a backward country. It is not and how would you possibly even assume that. However, no matter how far economically a country rises, if it doesn’t respect the basic rights of the individual, something’s going to give and it’s not going to be the individual. It doesn’t matter whether the country’s a monarchy, democracy, or Communist, if that government doesn’t respect just the basic universal freedoms as in the case with China, the people can “rock the boat” and the government will result in a political implosion.
But that really wasn’t my point. My point was simply that I supported Taiwanese independence and that if I was to tell a Chinese girl that I would get hell, but a Taiwanese on the other hand would be all over me so that was my basic point, but it really isn’t releveant and I thought I would just throw out China’s situation to readers who aren’t aware of the “real” China.
Delboy said,
December 27, 2006 @ 22:59
In response to Lee comments I assume he is American and took great offence to my comments that UK schools are better than American schools. British schools aren’t particularly great when compared to over European nations, But America has the lowest literacy rates in the western world so your schools can’t be that wonderful.
What were the issues you had with my social and historical reasoning? I wasn’t too specific in my historical references and my social comments were, I thought, comprehendible. Yes I know more African Americans fought in the Vietnam war than white Americans because it was harder for African Americans to object to conscription than white Americans, but it is clear from the tone of your short comment that you disagree fundamentally with something I have said.
I would like to know what you disagree with because I am always open to feedback, unlike a section of some Americans.
I think you can’t general any race of people really because people are mostly a product of their environment. Japanese girls born and raised in Brazil are completely different to Japanese girls in Japan. In fact Brazilian Japanese girls are basically Latin in sensibility, which is a heady mix. I have also met a Chinese girl from Nigeria. I have to say it was a bit weird seeing this Chinese girl with a strong Nigerian accent. Then again a white South African to me he felt my well spoken English accent was weird coming me a black guy so maybe I’m just being ignorant.
me said,
December 28, 2006 @ 21:09
i’m 22, a white australian guy 6′2….
god damn the amount of sex i had when i went to japan to visit my penpals!
i love japanese girls!!!
walter said,
December 29, 2006 @ 07:07
Yeah I agree with the above comment about Japanese girls. They are like sooooooooooo kirei! Oh and sooooooo hot!
Lee said,
January 2, 2007 @ 06:47
Delboy,
My earlier comments were kept brief because I didn’t feel that expounding on them would be within the subject matter. But since you asked I’ll explain a bit…
Your Nov. 30 comments had some interesting personal anecdotes, but at the end betray a prejudice that so many African immigrants in America and Britain seem to have against Afro-Americans. This prejudice causes a breakdown in logic, most likely because of ignorance of one’s own history, world history and some sociological trends that are so consistent that they might as well be considered axiomatic.
You say that british west Africans perform well because they don’t suffer from the history of slavery and therefore don’t suffer “psychological stigma” from that. Well, slavery has been widespread and pervasive in human civilization from the beginning. The 1000 year dominance of Rome (the republic and the empire) was marked by pervasive slavery, where slaves were a defined class and mostly relegated to that status for their entire lives and passed that status to their children; the slaves of Sparta (the Helots) were among the worst treated slaves in history; the word slave derives from Slav, a group of people who found themselves subjugated for much of their history. Nigerians kept slaves in their own country, who were never exported, to work the palm oil plantations for shipment of that lubricant to Europe. After the Berlin Conference the Nigerians and Ghanaians were virtual slaves in their own country under the rule of the of the British. They were forced to acquiesce in the rape of their country’s resources for the benefit of Britain, forced to pay taxes to the colonizer, were victims of the british divide and conquer tactic by -among other things-the british limiting availability of education. Is there psychological stigma or genetic consequences for these extant group of people whose ancestors experienced slavery and abject subjugation? Can we say that the very bad reputation that Nigerians have across the world (and not just for the “Nigerian internet scams” meme) is the result of psychological trauma from this history of slavery and being colonized? I would not say so, but others might (maybe you?) Franz Fanon wrote about some of the psychological damage he found in the colonized in his book ‘Black Skin, White Masks’ (not as often quoted as his ‘Wretched of the Earth’). Maybe Fanon’s analysis could explain why Africans manifest such prejudice and negative actions toward Afro-Americans?
I would say the the hip hop culture phenomenon is not a black thing, but an American thing. Hip hop culture was started by latinos and blacks in New York, although there are plenty of examples of rapping or rhyming in black music and entertainment before hip hop started in the 1970s. One can see some of hip hop culture’s traits in other aspects of American culture including early American rock and roll, the gangster history of America (Al Capone, Bonnie and Clyde, John Dillinger) and American ‘me-first’ capitalism (or as they might say in your country ‘devil take the hindmost’). Afro-Americans are not some recent immigrant group to America. They were there from the beginning and are part and parcel of what made and makes America (along with the British and Native American part). I could give you many, many examples illustrating that America is at is core a syncretic culture formed of these three groups. You should discipline your mind and not let the mass media tell you that hip hop culture defines black America. I can’t believe you gave Jay Z and 50 cent as examples. Culture is not just entertainment, and entertainment is not real power. Maybe you should also think of Jesse Jackson, Condoleeza Rice, Ron Brown, Thurgood Marshall or Randall Robinson when you think of black America. If you haven’t heard of some of these names maybe you should reach for a higher standard, turn off the television and read a book. I know TV can be addicting. I watched a ridiculous amount of it growing up. I also know how good british education is, but you won’t do too badly if you follow the example of Ellen Johnson Sirleaf, president of Liberia, or Kwame Nkrumah and many other world leaders by studying in the US. I went to public primary school in the US and received a better education than many people I’ve met who went to private primary schools. My experience may not be universal but it shows that neither is the converse. A big issue here is trying to get the federal government to both be more proactive in the education of the indigent and to put money into the public schools instead of waiting and hoping for them to disintegrate as a means to turning them over to private enterprises.
Finally, many African immigrants mistakenly compare themselves to the poor and uneducated in the black American population when making their assertions. In order to come to this country most African immigrants were already of means, both financially and economically (assuming they didn’t win the visa lottery to come to the US). They should compare themselves to educated blacks and those of comparable means.(I would say the same to black Americans who emigrate to South Africa or France) When they do that, their conclusions are shown to be wrong. If I went to Nigeria or Ghana, I wouldn’t compare myself to the poor, uneducated and unemployed of those countries. Unfortunately all societies have these sectors, and if one wants to make comparisons and make sociological points about education, upward mobility etc, one has to compare apples with apples.
I’m sure I’ve gone on far too long and have only touched the surface. Now about Asian and black dating…
walter said,
January 3, 2007 @ 10:19
Lee I like totally agree with you man. That was like sooo deep. Lol. That Dellboy guy is something. British blacks smarter than American blacks? What?!!! I mean who like really cares about intelligence? All I want is a nice, good-looking Asian girl next to me…sigh. Anyway I don’t really care about race. I mean I’m half black and Native American and I prefer Asian girls (especially Japanese…kirei!!), so what’s the harm? I think the world of today is getting more mature and the more people know, then the more better decisions they will make. So screw this whole race thing, I could care less. Sure racism does exist but it’s not gonna stop me from doing my thing, you know? Alright Lee take it easy.
Lee said,
January 5, 2007 @ 13:30
walter, I also don’t let race stop me from doing my thing in the dating game (or at least from trying to do my thing). Beauty of course comes in all colors, and I find asian women very attractive, but they can be particularly standoffish when it comes to blacks (at least here in the US, and I had an interesting experience going out with a korean woman). This seems to be magnified with those of japanese and chinese background. Philipinos seem to be much more open to dating black men than other asian women (the military thing?). Negative stereotypes of blacks are pervasive internationally and that undoubtedly affects japanese and chinese women, but I don’t think that totally accounts for their obvious reluctance to date blacks because they are exposed in their workplace (speaking of my US experience), doctor’s offices, the US government and other aspects of american society to blacks that obviously don’t fit the stereotypes they see in the mass media. I suspect that for them the “perception is 2/3 of reality” thing is in effect and leads to an ingrained notion that one’s “status” will be diminished if they are with a black, regardless of his salary or high education level. Some of this is based on my personal experience which can lead one down the road of wrong conclusions.
well anyway, I hope to go to japan, korea and china relatively soon because one can get a skewed picture based only on experience of asians in US or Europe. maybe convince that special someone to come to the Darkside (you don’t know the power!)
Douglas Drummin said,
January 6, 2007 @ 01:47
I dont know what Lee is talking about all Asian woman love Black Men and Vice Versa look at the trend its in its all about the Kids we make together when you put a Asian and white baby together ahhhh but someone with color now thats a pretty baby with both side of the feild it seems the children that come fromm a black and Asian mother and father seem to be more curious about the world almost like they wont let the world stop them from getting what they want besides the things the world puts in there way this is just my thoughts please no one take this to heart but in the us its all where you live if you live in on the west coast no problem black Asian all day if you live in NewYork ahhhhh its around but the Asians on the Newyork side like White men and it seems the Asiam women on the west Coast have better asses it seem there all flat on the east coast maybe its just me seeing through the eyes of a 30 year old Half Black man lololo
Lee said,
January 6, 2007 @ 13:21
Douglas, second time in as many days that I’ve been told about the west coast-east coast difference. I think I’m going to have to take a trip out west. (also, I think your butt differential theory deserves some research on my part)
Douglas Drummin said,
January 9, 2007 @ 03:00
trust me east coast is awfull noass@all just look around 20% outta of 100% of Asian woman have a Meat in the back anyway its like you hit the jackpot if you can find one with a but mostly more south asians have bodys some of them from japan but not likely prove me wrong send a picture to my email address if im wrong. (onlypinio@yahoo.com)
walter said,
January 10, 2007 @ 02:32
Look guys! Who cares! I don’t care if “statistically” Asian women are standoffish towards blacks! I’m not even 100 percent black, but in the United States who is? I mean I have a myspace account, and I have like around 50 Japanese honies on my page, so I could really care less. I care nothing about stats. All I know is I’m attracted to Asian girls, Chinese and Japanese in particular, and I’m sure that if I work hard enough (half of that is already done because I look good…lol), then I will definitely date an Asian girl or even settle down with one. So I can care a damn less about any of this “Asian girls prefer white guys only” because I know it’s bullshit. I mean I guess I could be mean and say, “White guys are turning to Asian girls because white girls are being taken by black guys in the United States.” I see this everyday and I live in Alabama! So my point is stop this racial stuff and just get along. I’m getting my Oriental girl damnit! Lol. OH and if anyone wants to hate on that, then f%$k you! I could care less. Thank you sirs for putting up with my bad words today but I’m just gettin tired of this black and white thing. It’s stupid, old, and people need to STOP IT. Even stats are so discriminating because I know for a fact that Japanese girls in Japan LOVE black guys. Especially American black guys so no one can sit here and tell me otherwise. If I wanted to I could easily get a Chinese girl as well. It’s not about race in my opinion, it’s about the overall individual. If you’re a loser, feel bad about yourself, and just don’t take care of yourself, then yeah why would a pretty Asian girl want you? It seems only in America does race count, or people discuss it quite often, and it’s quite stupid. Then as a result, Asian-American girls get influenced by black stereotypes and date white guys. It’s as if white guys are oooh so perfect when it’s really not true. So screw this race thing, I could care less, and I’m all the way for Asian girls. So get over it guys!
Lee said,
January 10, 2007 @ 12:43
Walter, chill. There is nothing to get over. This was just a discussion of one aspect of a topic (who japanese and other asian women date). As with all (good) topics and websites, the discussion can take all sorts of unexpected turns and asides. It’s called exchanging ideas. Race is just one aspect of this topic, as was nationality. Forgive me but…it’s quite silly to suggest that simply because race is discussed that a person is obsessed or anything. It’s only a subject. Instead of pulling a Joseph Stalin, just give your opinion and support it. You may show someone where they’re wrong and thereby increase the sum total of accurate memes in the world. lol When a person protests as much and loudly as you did and accuse others as you did it usually means THAT person(meaning you) has some insecurities about the subject matter. I find the same thing when one gets into discussions with the religious zealots of all stripes.
BTW the term should be “I COULDN’T care less,” not “I COULD care less.” Think about it, if you can’t care any less then you are the rock bottom of being concerned about something. See, knowledge has been increased in this discussion. take care
Wayne said,
January 12, 2007 @ 04:39
I found this posting to very interesting. I’ve lived in several states and several countries including Japan and i found that it doesn’t matter about race, women date who they like. White, Black, Spanish, European, doesn’t matter, if thats what she’s into, then thats who shes going to be looking for to date. Also Lee most people say “I could care less” it kinda like being sarcastic, your more likely to hear it said that way then the other, even if its the correct way of saying it.
Lee said,
January 12, 2007 @ 13:54
Wayne, I agree with you that women date who they like, of course, and so do men. I have dated women from many nationalities and races. But my only intention in that earlier post was to analyze something that others here seem to have also seen and offer possible explanations (speculation, two-cents worth, whatever) When one analyzes and tries to describe a phenomenon, one has to generalize, that’s the nature of knowledge and the tools we have. I never said any of my speculations or musings apply to all asian women, or all japanese women. Most things are not universal (we all know about death and taxes, blah blah blah) For example, if the US economy is said to be in a downturn, that doesn’t mean that all 50 states and D.C. are necessarily experiencing a downturn, but the economy in general is. You see my very obvious point here.
And as far as the ‘couldn’t care less’, ‘could care less thing’, I know it’s a sarcastic statement, but I was just pointing out the correct way to say the sarcastic statement. I appreciate when people point out to me that I’m using a word incorrectly or misstating a saying, quote or phrase. (I also want someone to tell me if I have something hanging from my nose or on my teeth) Just because many people use that phrase incorrectly is not a good reason to follow the trend of incorrect usage. I thought I was being helpful.
Delboy said,
January 13, 2007 @ 13:50
Lee I am back to respond to your comments on my earlier postings. You might be surprised to hear that most of what you said I agree with. Maybe being born in the UK of Ashanti decent means I come from a privilage point of view that gives me a skewed view of the world and black history. If you are a great black historian as you proclaim to be then you will know Ashanti history too. Don’t get me wrong there is plenty of problems in Africa and with African people self inflicted and imposed. Like the the fact the British company BP is taking oil and money out of Nigeria and that Cigarette companies are targeting African countries and increasing sales becuase those countries just because they can and don’t care.
You are clearly an intelligent man, but the problem with America and Americans is that ignorance is independant of intelligence because America is such an insular bubble society. Of course I know that there are loads of highly intelligent, intellectual successful African Americans that are great role models, but you need to get a passport and see black people outside of America before you talk. I’ve been all round the world and seen black people across 5 continents (North America, South America, Europe, Africa and Australia) and the common denominator was hip-hop culture. Whether you or me like it or not this is the predominate culture among black people in the world. Most of the people I met in Paris, Barcelona, Amsterdam, Sydney, Rio, Lima, New York, Las Vegas, Accra, Lagos, Tunsia, St Lucia, Kingston either don’t know or care who Rice and Jesse Jackson are, but know Jay-Z. You can talk about the origins of hip-hop, but last time I checked all the most successful hip-hop artists are African American.
What I was saying was American society is very different to other societies around the world especially UK society that is just as multi-racial. In America black people start from a lower position than minority groups because of history, like you said black people have in American nearly since the begining. In Britain Black people are just another minority group because they chose to move there. It always makes me laugh when I here African Americans proclaim that America is the best place to be black in. I been to America many times and what shocks me about America is the levels proverty and racism that open exists compared to Britain especially compared to London. The poorest people in Britain are middle class by American standards. Like I said the American Dream is the British reality because healthcare is free and education is very cheap so if I want to make bucks I can get an education then move to make loads of bucks like my brother, then again I don’t like living in a country where white people have blatantly prejudice attitudes. You cannot deny this but there is even an attitude amongst some African Americans that being educated so how makes you a white wanna be and this was completely shocking and alien to me as a black person born in England because race is an everyday issue for Americans, but as a Londoner it isn’t. This illustrated the manipulation of African Americans in American society.
I had a friend I grew up with and he was a mathematical genius and could workout any formular in a split second. He could of been a Scientist or worked for NASA or something like that with his mind, something to make a real big difference. But he loved American culture and wanted to be a hip-hop due to this influence. He was uncsuccessful and now sales cars for a living, which is just such a waste of a great mind. Hip-hop culture might be your ticket out of proverty if you are from a deep south project, but I have seen too many middle class black people born outside the bubble of the USA be seduced and lower themselves to that level when they have far more potential to achieve things in life. I do like Hip-hop music to a point, but it is like KFC Chicken, easy to devour, but essentially unhealthy.
Lee you seemed to think the African views towards African Americans and other non-generational black people I posted in a earlier post were my own views. These are not my own views just an illustration of an attitude that exist amongst Africans. I like you feel this attitude is snobbish and unkind, but it is this attitude that has insulated Africans in Britain from the American media projection of black people through TV.
Although black people have been in the UK for well over 400 years, a big wave of black came to Britain in the 1950s. Most were Caribbean and some where west African, but of the generations that came later only West Africans in government statistics are performing well academically. In fact gangster hip-hop influenced gun crime has increased greatly suddenly in Britain in the last 10 years. 95% of gun black crime in London is committed by a person of Caribbean origin depsite West Africans being the largest black group in Britain. Statistic show that if you are black of a West African family you are 20 times more likely to go to college (university) than a black person of another nationality. If you did not like my explanation then what would you substitute if for?
Anyway this is the longest digression in history.
Walter if you love your Asian ladies then I suggest you save your money and fly to Thailand. You got Thai, Japanese, Korean, Chinese and half Thai-arab girls too. It will be like heaven for you.
Walter said,
January 14, 2007 @ 01:46
Well guys good discussion. I wonder what Asian girls are thinking now if they were to see this forum.
Lee said,
January 14, 2007 @ 08:17
Delboy, I was tempted not to respond because your post was a bit disjointed(typos?), rambling and, I have to say, rather puerile in its logic. In responding I feel like I’m about to beat up a high school kid. But a couple points…
I don’t profess to be a great historian. I’m just a common man, with common sense, who reads and observes with a discerning eye. You desribed yourself as snobbish because of your descent from the ashanti kingdom from the past, now vanquished. Well, based on your statement it seems you would feel that I as an american, whose country is history’s only truly global superpower that essentially now controls the world, would be justified in being snobbish. I don’t feel that way and I am not snobbish. Snobbery is a defect of character. Although as a youth I was told to be proud of the ashanti queen mother asantewa as a rep of black history, as an adult I see her as a hero for everyone, black, white, yellow, brown… whoever is against imperialism or colonialism. I would say the same of michael collins and the irish resistance (although I am against violence and terrorism). No need to be snobbish or selfish about one’s cultural past.
I think the real issue is that you are probably young, if not chronologically then mentally -or better yet-experientially. I’m not trying to be mean. You don’t seem to be as observing and discerning as you probably think you are. As an analogy, I would say that The Matrix has you.
You(and many others, including in my country) have been made a slave for your mind. Not for electricity but for a different type of power: acquiescense and docility to the ideas dictated to you. But the real trick is that you think you’re thinking for yourself and drawing your own conclusions. I have observed blacks in several other countries. Why would you conclude that I don’t have a passport, because I’m american, or black american? (To quote Public Enemy, ‘don’t believe the hype’) I’ve also observed them in the US. What I have found in my travels is that hip hop culture predominates among the youth. And I bet this is what you saw too if you think about it. When you understand the march of history and culture, it could be no other way. In an earlier post I mentioned that hip hop culture shows similarites to american rock and roll (and other americana). Rock and roll started as a music of the youth, of rebellion, and of irreverence. (It also got its start from black american blues btw) Trashing of hotel rooms, drinking, drugging, sex… all these things alarmed the adult population and the arbiters of the nation’s culture back then. It was called depraved and a danger to the stability of society. (You had similar feelings in your country, even before Sid Vicious, rude boy culture, etc) Look at how internationally pervasive that music of the young and it’s behaviors became without the internet, or pervasive satellite communication, or cell phones, or text messaging, or MTV. Now look at the latest culture and music of the youth to arise in america: hip hop (rapping is one aspect of hip hop culture). It has gone global and captured the youth because of the unprecedented technological integration of the world today. But… and this is a big but… the record companies dictate the form of rap that is marketed and becomes popular internationally. Currently gangster rap, dirty south, etc is the thing, with all its misogyny and degradation of women. The youth eats up this “bad boy” music. It’s in the record companies’ interest to market this stuff as a true representaive of blacks, and to put out the idea that most blacks are into the “street culture.” The important thing for you to know is that this marketing is also directed at american youth too, both black and white. So not only do international youth vicariously live out this dictated fantasy, but so do american youth. Incidentally, the overwhelming majority of rap music bought in the US is bought by white kids. Also, don’t forget Eminem. As I mentioned earlier, America was syncretic in its formation and it remains it’s nature. Just as George Bush or Bill Clinton wouldn’t be called English-Americans, but just Americans, don’t be fooled by the Afro part of Afro-American. What comes out of the black population is uniquely american and comes with all the american baggage and history. l tell you, as I’ve told other black youth i’ve come in contact with here and in other parts of the world, free your mind of the propaganda, don’t believe the hype. It can be hard work. And too many youth give in to the fantasy world of being a rapper or basketball player. You’re right, most of those (kids) in those countries you mentioned don’t care about Jesse Jackson or Condoleeza Rice. But they should. And so should those over here. Just because you observed that the state of awareness of these people is bad is no reason to accept that state. Changing it takes work on the part of those of us who are aware of what’s going on. That’s adult work. Can you take up the challenge to free yourself of these misconceptions and then teach another?
The last time I checked the statistics a couple of years ago, those in Britain living in povery was about 17% of the population, US poverty was about 12-13% of our population. Children living in poverty in US and Britain were about the same at roughly 20% of children. Apalling stats for these two majoor industrialized countries to have. Also, the percentage of blacks below the poverty line in US was about 22-23%, so close to 80% of black americans are not in poverty. But the media focuses not only on that 22%, but a small portion of that 22% that is involved in crime, drugs, etc. Studies have repeatedly shown that the majority of poor people in US have a higher rate of committment to ethical behavior than higher income americans. But that small percentage of the 22% is what’s focused on in the media (they love the bad stories, the murders, etc) and broadcast across the world. Remember, poverty is not only defined in terms of income, although that is important. Better housing in Britain for the poor should not blind you to the very real problem of poverty in Britain, both among adults and children.
A discerning mind would know that recent immigrants to a country necessarily do better than those from the past. It’s called the immigrant drive and is observed in the US as well. That’s a very well known phenomenon in sociology (and no I’m not a sociologist). It’s no mistery. Recent immigrants come with better education, resources and drive (it’s inherent in the decision to emigrate from one’s home country). There’s nothing special or unexpected about the fact that recent west african immigrants are doing well in britain. You didn’t think it was something genetic, did you?
I have much respect for for Britain, especially its population which stood up so bravely to it’s government during the protests against the war. Britain is part of my history, being responsible for my country’s political institutions. Britain’s Fabian socialist history continues to provide a social safety net for it’s people, despite Thatcherism and the social rollbacks under Blairism in his attempts to seemingly follow the path of the US. But isn’t it interesing to you that despite is racialist history that the US has had more blacks high up in national government than Britain, as Secretary of State, National Security Advisor, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Assistant Attorney Generals, and many members of Congress although only two or three have been Senators since Reconstruction. I consider this US government history to have taken too long and to be only a start. But I believe you’ve only had Oona King in the Parliament(who recently lost to George Galloway, a carpetbagger to her district) and one other black guy in the past in parliament who’s name I can’t rember, in addition to that one black woman who was in the Blair government. Also, there’s no National Front in this country. The KKK are an anachronistic joke in US.
Sorry, that was more than a couple points, wasn’t it?